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-   -   Time trials Nationals!! (http://www.alscca.net/community/showthread.php?t=5201)

JohnW8 01-20-2018 06:33 PM

Time trials Nationals!!
 
https://www.scca.com/articles/200895...ationals-event

nicktcr 01-22-2018 12:11 AM

I like the idea of a national level TT, but why this format? NASCAR qualifying style? Is that normal in other regions?

chuck schultz 01-22-2018 06:15 AM

It looks like the only thing that resembles what we are actually doing in the various Regions' TT programs is Friday's and Saturday morning's open track sessions. The actual competitions will apparently all be waiting around for single-lap runs of various segments of the track.

Is this how Time Attack events run? It certainly doesn't reflect current SCCA TT procedures in our part of the world.

It looks way too complicated, and will lose, once again, to NASA's TT program, which, at least on the Regional level, keeps it simple - "Everybody into the pool."

DelanieC 01-22-2018 09:09 AM

It's baffling... It's like someone tried really hard to come up with the worst idea. "Hmmm. How can we have the least possible track time??"

JohnW8 01-22-2018 12:11 PM

It's another "experiential" effort. I'm beginning to think that means "bad idea".

MilesCrabbe 01-22-2018 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck schultz (Post 48988)
Is this how Time Attack events run?

Yes... in video games. Every other real life Time Trial event seen/heard/read about was the standard multiple 10/20/30 minute session open track event.

Well at minimum it's an idea, I'll refrain from adding the adjectives good or bad until we see what happens. But if track time was the goal, they are going to fail miserably...

JohnW8 01-23-2018 04:31 PM

Not too long ago we ran three cars at a time on the track at TGPR in a time trial format. They called them pods. Cars were gridded up based on lap times to keep someone from catching the car in front of them. We ran 3 laps. A warm up, a hot lap and a cool down.Those were your timed runs. Of course you had multiple attempts to improve your time. If you caught the car in front of you, you didn't pass them you had to give up the run pull into the pits for a rerun. I can't remember how we ran our qualifying laps. I think it was done in run groups. And we liked it! Now with the "Everybody in the Pool" action Time trials is just a timed track day and nowhere near the "edge of your seat" competition it used to be. I haven't had a clean lap in a TT event for years.

farrout 01-23-2018 07:37 PM

The warm-up and 3 hot laps with no passing was a function of the SOLO based timing system used at the time. Timing system could not differentiate between cars, hence no passing. It also go confused if the following car was too close since it could not recycle fast enough. There were no qualifying laps, everything was for a time.

We went to the 20 min sessions after we started using the AMB Transponders. They gave drivers the option to pass and more on track time. Pretty much like race qualifying when not every lap is clean.


This National event is not like anything any Region is currently doing. Another brilliant idea from EP.

JohnW8 01-24-2018 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farrout (Post 48996)
The warm-up and 3 hot laps with no passing was a function of the SOLO based timing system used at the time. Timing system could not differentiate between cars, hence no passing. It also go confused if the following car was too close since it could not recycle fast enough. There were no qualifying laps, everything was for a time.

That's why I don't remember qualifying sessions. Thanks Craig!

farrout 01-24-2018 04:07 PM

Chuck - I was reading the Redline Time Attack rules. Cars are gridded are released according to qual or best time. There appear to be a number of cars on track. Format is warm-up lap, maximum of 3 hot laps and a cool down. Passing is not mentioned. Allowable cars appear to be street based cars in various forms allowed. Did not see any classes for Formula, sports racers, or GCR type cars. Safety gear like we use in TT is required.

John - the conundrum for TT was retaining the old 4 cars, no passing format or going toward the multiple cars with passing format. Were drivers more interested in more track time or clean laps? Drivers leaning toward SOLO are probably more interested in the clean lap concept. Most drivers wanted the increased track time. Was TT to be a learning venue for those who wanted to advance to Road Racing? (we have had many drivers do that over the years)

The new TT National events appears to be more like a Time Attack leaning toward the SOLO experience. Is that the right approach for the future of SCCA and TT?

I have no idea what the 14 car classes will consist of. SEDIV tends to run 42-44 different car classes every year since we allow GCR, TT and SOLO based cars to run. Having spent some time investigating how to get down to fewer classes for TT, I believe it is a difficult task to do well but an easier task to screw up. If the TT Committee is able to condense the GCR, TT and SOLO based cars down into 14 equitable classes without eliminating any particular existing cars they will have been able to accomplish something that the SEB and CRB have been unable to do.

If you could determine equitably that particular car classes are capable of XX.XX lap times, then theoretically you could group them to XX +/- y seconds together. Everybody is happy then, right?

JohnW8 01-24-2018 04:37 PM

At no time will everybody be happy. It's a rule and I'm not happy about it.

rodhx 01-24-2018 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW8 (Post 49003)
At no time will everybody be happy. It's a rule and I'm not happy about it.

:qqb011:

DelanieC 01-24-2018 11:07 PM

I just watched Mr Wagner on Grassroots Motorsports Live and if I heard correctly, they're already ditching the single hot lap thing. So that's a step in the right direction for sure.

farrout 01-25-2018 06:11 AM

They do not have a clue about what they really want to do. They just threw this event out there. There are no TTR that even remotely relate to this event. There are no supps. 14 car classes are mentioned but nothing is pulled together yet.

It sounds a lot like TNIA was initially. Someone is going to show and operate this event probably on the fly. Mr Wagner is a big picture guy and has no true expertise in the minute planning it takes for this sort of event.

Keep listening because the event format will change continually.

JohnW8 01-25-2018 10:47 AM

I kind of liked the single hot lap thing. It's not really a time trial event, it sounded like an autox run on a racetrack with no cones. Might be a fun competition. No cone penalties but plenty of "Oh my God, I hit that wall hard" penalties. I wouldn't call this Time Trials though.

rodhx 01-25-2018 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW8 (Post 49013)
I kind of liked the single hot lap thing. It's not really a time trial event, it sounded like an autox run on a racetrack with no cones. Might be a fun competition. No cone penalties but plenty of "Oh my God, I hit that wall hard" penalties. I wouldn't call this Time Trials though.

That is what the "segment" thing is starting to look like. Otherwise known as a trackcross. I did one last year and it's a lot of fun. I would be lobbying for us to run a TGPR event (not a TT event) with that format if the cost could work out.

farrout 01-26-2018 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW8 (Post 49013)
I kind of liked the single hot lap thing. It's not really a time trial event, it sounded like an autox run on a racetrack with no cones. Might be a fun competition. No cone penalties but plenty of "Oh my God, I hit that wall hard" penalties. I wouldn't call this Time Trials though.

You have hit upon the basic question that we all are struggling with. "What is Time Trials?

Is it the Track Trials (SOLO 1) we have been doing since the late 70's? Is it the Club Trials format (Same as Track Trials without the safety gear)? Is it to become this new format that resembles an advanced SOLO?

SCCA National is running off with their own ideas which do not appear to have any current TT driver input. The TT drivers need to speak up. You used to have that voice thru your DTTC representatives. Sadly, that form of representation has been killed by SCCA National after dismissing your representatives and disbanding the DTTC.

Go listen to the GRM interview that Tony Ewing posted on the TeamTac website.

JohnW8 01-26-2018 08:37 AM

My reference for time trials has always been the qualifying for theIndy 500. I’d watch the Time trials and be on the edge of my seat waiting to see who was going to put on top. That tight competition, measured in thousandths is what it was for me. A single car doing a hot lap or three on a clear track looking for a perfect line without distractions or encumbrance of other traffic. Our current format is a timed track day. Club trials is a timed track day without as much safety equipment. Why not do a Saturday of open track timed lapping for class placement, like we currently do, then on Sunday morning line and do a traditional one car at a time for class wins. After that open track for the rest of the day.

nicktcr 01-26-2018 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW8 (Post 49018)
Why not do a Saturday of open track timed lapping for class placement, like we currently do, then on Sunday morning line and do a traditional one car at a time for class wins. After that open track for the rest of the day.

This sounds like a pretty healthy balance of getting folks some track time, while also allowing tight competition. I like it!

farrout 01-28-2018 02:11 PM

The SEDIV TT Committee always needs active participants who will take the time to find out what the TT drivers want in their TT program. They have to be willing to take the time to participate. Sitting back and contributing nothing to decisions does not do the program any good. The SEDIV DA will become the most important person for SEDIV TT now that the DTTC has been disbanded. Shane will need everyone's help in 2018. Shane's 3 year term as DA ends in 2018. Who is going to step up and lead the SEDIV TT Program if he decides to move on?

JohnW8 02-02-2018 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farrout (Post 49020)
The SEDIV TT Committee always needs active participants who will take the time to find out what the TT drivers want in their TT program. They have to be willing to take the time to participate. Sitting back and contributing nothing to decisions does not do the program any good. The SEDIV DA will become the most important person for SEDIV TT now that the DTTC has been disbanded. Shane will need everyone's help in 2018. Shane's 3 year term as DA ends in 2018. Who is going to step up and lead the SEDIV TT Program if he decides to move on?

Nothing kills the conversation quicker than an appeal to step up and run the program.

farrout 02-04-2018 07:26 AM

With the direction that Heyward is steering the TT program, the future of the SEDIV TT program is even more dependent on the active support of the SEDIV TT Committee and the Regions.

Kill a conversation or kill a program?

e30Racer 02-05-2018 02:34 PM

I'm excited to see that the SCCA is finally giving TT national recognition via a national event. Is it a little different than what is normally done here in the southeast? yep. Could it change in the future? yep. But if we want the SCCA to think that TT is a viable endeavor, we should support it. After you experience what they have to offer, then give your feedback.

Maybe what they are offering isn't what has been "Time Trials" in the past, but maybe instead of saying that SCCA Nat'l is out of touch with what the regions are putting on, we should be asking if what the regions are putting on is out of touch with what people want in time trials? Declining participation seems to suggest that what the regions are putting on isn't what people want?

I plan to be there in September to support the program and to say that "yes, I want a national TT program". Now that being said, it being close is a major factor and I wouldn't travel more than 5+ hours to attend.

JohnW8 02-05-2018 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e30Racer (Post 49038)
I'm excited to see that the SCCA is finally giving TT national recognition via a national event. Is it a little different than what is normally done here in the southeast? yep. Could it change in the future? yep. But if we want the SCCA to think that TT is a viable endeavor, we should support it. After you experience what they have to offer, then give your feedback.

Maybe what they are offering isn't what has been "Time Trials" in the past, but maybe instead of saying that SCCA Nat'l is out of touch with what the regions are putting on, we should be asking if what the regions are putting on is out of touch with what people want in time trials? Declining participation seems to suggest that what the regions are putting on isn't what people want?

I plan to be there in September to support the program and to say that "yes, I want a national TT program". Now that being said, it being close is a major factor and I wouldn't travel more than 5+ hours to attend.

Agreed. I just wish they would have come up with a new name instead instead of stealing the TT name and immediately putting a bunch of time-trialers on the defensive. Our lack of participation has more to do with the track than the event.

farrout 02-05-2018 04:15 PM

While I agree with having a National TT event, I disagree with the construct of this particular event.

In SEDIV, our TT Championship Series averages 46% GCR , 31% Solo, and 24% Formula cars. While there is a good PDX program in Florida, the Northern PDX is minimal. SEDIV is close to NEDIV as the largest TT programs and light years ahead of the rest of the country. The SEDIV TT Program is an end state unto itself for many drivers, allows many former racers to still drive their cars, has served as a training ground for many drivers to go forward to Club Racing licenses, has served as test and tune time for Club Racers, and has allowed many SOLO drivers to advance onto the track experience in a safe environment.

This National event is catering to PDX type cars (no vehicle or personal safety gear) and timing them (similar to a Club Trials) using a SOLO based timing system. Other than the Qualifying on Day One, the events resemble Time Attack and/or a Pro SOLO format. Fourteen car classes are mentioned and Formula and GCR cars appear to be excluded. None of the rules, supps or car classes have been written as this National event was only conceived in December by National staff, none of whom have any real TT experience.

SCCA tried to establish a SOLO Trials (high speed SOLO) program after they split off SOLO I into Time Trials. SOLO Trials did not survive. This National event is trying to copy other existing programs by For Profit groups. Any resemblance to the very successful Time Trials program is coincidence.

I have asked the SEDIV Regions what they want for years now. Actual responses have been minimal. The car counts at a PDX or Club Trial have not been encouraging (other than in Florida which does not have Club or Track Trials).

Do the SCCA drivers want an advanced SOLO program to replace the current TT program? There are certain people at National that appear to want this to happen.


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