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Old 02-05-2018, 04:37 PM   #26
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Excluding GCR and Formula car classes is ridiculous. I love autox and most national events are plenty fast. Why would they want to do this? Is it because big parking lots are getting too hard to find and they want autox to transition to racetracks?
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Old 02-05-2018, 08:45 PM   #27
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The recent trend of new programs started with CRE then TNIA which was first touted as increasing membership. That membership metric failed and the propaganda changed to one of participation. You may have noticed that at the National event, drivers can get their TT License by basically completing the first practice day without incident. Suddenly, the requirement for multiple events or the SEDIV TT School in order to advance from TT Novice to your full TT license was determined to be no longer valid. In order to get your TT Novice license or your TT license, you must first be a full SCCA member. Voila, instant new membership plus the extra fees for the TT license.

The new target audience is the same one as TNIA, Targa, etc. Millennials with a hot street car that they want to drive fast. Currently, they are spending more money than a TT costs to go to the Track Days, Time Attacks, HPDE, etc. by the many groups that sponsor them. The target audience is not solely our current TT drivers. TNIA did not bring in the new memberships, maybe the new TT will.

Whether or not you like NASA, the NASA TT program has had great success by itself and also as a stepping stone to their racing program.

You may know that all of the SEDIV representatives to the TTAC/DTTC have been told their services were no longer required or left hanging when they volunteered for the new TT Committees. A year ago I spoke out strongly against Track Trials being eliminated as a TT event. I was told that SEDIV could put the safety requirements in their supps if they wanted to but the basic category was gone in favor of "Club Trials". My opposition was met with my dismissal. I can show you TTR that I authored a year ago for the TT reorganization. The DTTC disappeared and thus there are no new TTR for 2018 nor are there any TTR for the new TT Program that Mr Wagner demanded.

AS AN UPDATE: At the SEDIV Meetings, Heyward mentioned that TT would consist of Unrestricted (i.e., previously Club Trials) and Restricted (i.e., previously Track Trials) plus Hill Climbs. It appears he has gone back to what I proposed last December which he said was not going to happen in March.
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Old 02-05-2018, 11:03 PM   #28
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I have not seen or heard anything regarding excluding formula cars or GCR cars. In fact, in the GRM interview, HW suggested that the classing would be similar to classing that is already found at most Time Trial Events. 4 basic classes would be used with the first 2 being geared more toward solo-prepped cars and the latter 2 being geared more toward GCR cars. If I am mistaken please let me know. I like the idea of simplifying the classes, that has always been one of my biggest gripes with SCCA Time Trials. There's just too many classes and when someone picks up the rule book to see where their car fits, they give up after 5 minutes because its too complicated. Then you add in region-specific classing and it gets worse. 14 classes, keep it simple. Global Time attack uses 4 classes with three subdivision in each class (RWD, AWD, and FWD). They are growing in popularity.

As for SCCA Nat'l trying something a little different at the TT Nationals, I'm ok with that. I have not heard that the new format is going to be forced on all of the regions and that the new format is what "Time Trials" will now have to be. Has SCCA Nat'l said that ALSCCA and TVR cannot put on a "traditional" time trial this year?

What would I prefer? I'm glad you asked...someone did ask right...? A traditional two-day TT event would be fine. But now that they've suggested changing it up, I like the idea of a Friday test day, Saturday run-groups with 15-20 min sessions, and then Sunday have what us Millennials call a "super lap battle" where you get one lap to post your best time. That sounds fun, mix it up a little bit. Require drivers to put together a single fast lap with one shot. Sounds like a true time trial to me, but everyone has their own ideas of what a time trial is.

The problem I have seen with SCCA National is that they the Time Trials program has never been high on their priority list. Autox and Club Racing are the bread-winners. They wouldn't put the time and money into Time Trials and everyone kept saying "well, there are other places that do PDX's and Time Attack, do we need to add another one?" Well, if you don't the people will leave and go elsewhere, which is exactly what's happened.

I'm looking forward to the TT Nat'l event and also anxiously awaiting Targa Southland 2018 announcements. Sounds like fun events to me.
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Old 02-06-2018, 07:58 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e30Racer View Post
As for SCCA Nat'l trying something a little different at the TT Nationals, I'm ok with that. I have not heard that the new format is going to be forced on all of the regions and that the new format is what "Time Trials" will now have to be. Has SCCA Nat'l said that ALSCCA and TVR cannot put on a "traditional" time trial this year?
No. The main change with our Spring event is the death of the PDX name. This program is now nationally called "Track Event" which is similar to what Delanie has been pushing for some time.

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I'm looking forward to the TT Nat'l event and also anxiously awaiting Targa Southland 2018 announcements. Sounds like fun events to me.
Unfortunately the focus on revamping Track Events/Time Trials/Hillclimbs has meant Targa is put on hold indefinitely. Targa is a fantastic program which became aspirational to many "non-traditional" SCCA participants. I enjoyed Targa 2017 as much as any event I've participated in and would rather do it again than go to Solo Nationals. Many past participants have expressed their disappointment. I think it also likely fell victim to budget pressure as I'm sure it cost the National office many thousands to put on.

Regarding the TT National Event...we may get an opportunity to try the format prior to the "big show". At the SeDiv conference this weekend several Regions, including SCR, NCR, ATL, discussed with Heyward to possibility of holding a similar event at CMP on Memorial Day weekend. Other Regions may also partner in the event to reduce costs and gain firsthand experience running the proposed format.

I agree with John that the use of "Time Trial" for the competitive on-track program is unfortunate, but I also struggle with anything that could be better and still meaningful for new folks.

If you have never tried it, the "trackcross" format is a huge amount of fun. Seems to be a great option for a TGPR event as it effectively addresses the tire wear issue. It seems that a combined Track Event/Trackcross could be at least as successful (fun/$/participant#) as what we're doing now. Note: that last comment doesn't necessarily mean change or abandon the traditional TT event.
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Old 02-06-2018, 08:36 AM   #30
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I hate to hear that about Targa. With everyone raving so much about it last year I was looking forward to participating this year. Oh well.
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Old 02-06-2018, 10:04 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodhx View Post
Note: that last comment doesn't necessarily mean change or abandon the traditional TT event.
The format of what I consider traditional (PODS) has already been abandoned. The new traditional is a timed trackday with lots of safety gear. (Road race qualifying)

Trying to define what a Time Trial is difficult since it's a moving target.
TT never has had any National support so I'm not sure why the Time-trialers are getting upset other than using the TT name then making the Time-trialers feel left out.

As of now the rules aren't fleshed out and there is talk of this being about fun. Competition among your friends is fun but just as soon as someone gets named national Champion someone is going for the rulebook to claim they were cheated out of a win.

I'd support this new format. The timed track day and the one car–one lap attack. It's fun competition to know how fast your competition just ran and knowing what you need to do for a win. It adds a bit of suspense rather than just looking at time sheets at the end of a session.
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Old 02-06-2018, 10:11 AM   #32
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Despite all the discussion about renaming, classing, National event, etc, there is no factual documentation available to support it. The TTR posted on SCCA are from 2017 (PDX/CT, TT/HC). No definition of the 14 classes. No supps for the National TT Event.

Given that the SEB and CRB have tried and failed to actually reduce the number of classes, I am anxiously awaiting definition of the 14 classes. If they can include Formula, SOLO and GCR cars into 14 competitive groupings, I applaud it and hope it is applicable to SOLO and Road Racing. In ours and other's TT classing structure, there are too many classes which results in single car competition where you are running against yourself.

As an example, in my P2 Stohr WF-1 I can run similar lap times to the SPO/GT-1/etc cars. I achieve those times with cornering capability while they use high HP and higher straight line speed. Should I be classed with them?

If SEDIV is going to do a Memorial Day event, the documentation (TTR, classing, supps) is critically needed now. How do drivers prepare their cars for the classing to be used if the classing definition is not available?

This new type of TT could be very good for the growth of TT but the devil is in the details!
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Old 02-06-2018, 10:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farrout View Post
Despite all the discussion about renaming, classing, National event, etc, there is no factual documentation available to support it. The TTR posted on SCCA are from 2017 (PDX/CT, TT/HC). No definition of the 14 classes. No supps for the National TT Event.

Given that the SEB and CRB have tried and failed to actually reduce the number of classes, I am anxiously awaiting definition of the 14 classes. If they can include Formula, SOLO and GCR cars into 14 competitive groupings, I applaud it and hope it is applicable to SOLO and Road Racing. In ours and other's TT classing structure, there are too many classes which results in single car competition where you are running against yourself.

As an example, in my P2 Stohr WF-1 I can run similar lap times to the SPO/GT-1/etc cars. I achieve those times with cornering capability while they use high HP and higher straight line speed. Should I be classed with them?

If SEDIV is going to do a Memorial Day event, the documentation (TTR, classing, supps) is critically needed now. How do drivers prepare their cars for the classing to be used if the classing definition is not available?

This new type of TT could be very good for the growth of TT but the devil is in the details!
I was wondering last night what car I could use for this event. The CSP car is no longer a TT car and I'm not buying a roll bar for one event and the ITA car might be excluded. Maybe I could run my truck.
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:06 AM   #34
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I have been told that Heyward wants car classifications to be aligned with GridLife as "that makes sense". Take a look at Grid.life if you want to get an idea of the rules/classes. Depending on the class, roll bars are required. A lot of the rules/requirements/specs look a lot like the SCCA GCR or TT rules.
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:42 AM   #35
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I'd love to try the event format beforehand, but CMP is a little far at 7+ hours. I'll likely be trying to do a couple of track days at NCM to learn the track and have some experience there come September.

I do agree that the sooner more information comes out the better. People do need time to plan and modify cars accordingly. Now to check out that gridlife website....

After looking at the gridlife rules, they are very similar to Global Time Attack and other organizations. For the most part, I like them. It's simple. On the downside, you could have a miata that is mostly stock racing against a corvette zo6 that is mostly stock in a low class. If you move up in a class and you have a miata, you'll need a turbo or an engine swap to compete with the big power cars. This is where SCCA has always differentiated itself and will create more classes to even out the competition. Unfortunately this is always a delicate balance and difficult to maintain. Which system is better? I don't know. But until I try both, I am only speculating.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e30Racer View Post
I'd love to try the event format beforehand, but CMP is a little far at 7+ hours. I'll likely be trying to do a couple of track days at NCM to learn the track and have some experience there come September.

I do agree that the sooner more information comes out the better. People do need time to plan and modify cars accordingly. Now to check out that gridlife website....

After looking at the gridlife rules, they are very similar to Global Time Attack and other organizations. For the most part, I like them. It's simple. On the downside, you could have a miata that is mostly stock racing against a corvette zo6 that is mostly stock in a low class. If you move up in a class and you have a miata, you'll need a turbo or an engine swap to compete with the big power cars. This is where SCCA has always differentiated itself and will create more classes to even out the competition. Unfortunately this is always a delicate balance and difficult to maintain. Which system is better? I don't know. But until I try both, I am only speculating.
NASA does it very nicely with classes based on Power to Weight ratio. I would think the Time Attack approach would eventually have you end up with all the front runners competing in basically the same car. SCCA dilutes the fields so much you end up with 97 champions most
of whom didn't have to beat anyone to become champion.
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:35 PM   #37
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It's my understanding that GCR cars won't be excluded by any means, they'll just have to fit into the new classes. They haven't said anything about formula cars but I wouldn't be surprised if they get left out.

I don't think the single lap thing is a good idea because it'll take up too much track time if you have any car count at all. My mind goes back to autocrosses with over a hundred entries and you get like four runs... And what about reruns of someone spins in front of you?
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:45 PM   #38
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No reruns. You spin, you lose.
Barbaric but entertaining.
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Old 02-06-2018, 01:41 PM   #39
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I meant if someone spins in front of you like autocross. You'd have to have more than one car on course.
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Old 02-06-2018, 03:41 PM   #40
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Pass the spinning car. Spin to Win!
Hail Thunderdome!
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Old 02-06-2018, 06:52 PM   #41
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You are debating what could happen in an event for which there are no rules, no operational doctrine, no supps, and nothing published about how it will be executed.

If one car is on track at a time and you are looking at a warm-up lap, a hot lap and a transit back to the pits, you can figure out how long that takes. If you have multiple cars on track, then there are cars on a hot lap, a warm-up and a cool-down - all at differing speeds. You could put cars out in a pod, arranged in an order and at intervals to insure that there is no passing. But, this is something that SCCA and its stewards at not used to doing. If you are using SOLO based timing systems rather than AMB Transponders, the timing becomes a complicating factor. There are many options but they still have to be worked out.

Not many people know how to work up a minute-by-minute operating schedule.
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Old 02-06-2018, 09:18 PM   #42
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Well there are still 7 months before the event so I’ll give Nat’l some time to get something worked up.
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:09 PM   #43
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Since they are talking about a tune-up event at CMP over Memorial Day weekend, there is a lot less time than you think. But just like TNIA, they have a throw it out there and fix it later attitude.
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:31 PM   #44
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Quote:
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Since they are talking about a tune-up event at CMP over Memorial Day weekend, there is a lot less time than you think. But just like TNIA, they have a throw it out there and fix it later attitude.
I guess that's the way of experiential stuff. Throw it together for fun, see if everyone likes it, then worry about the details in the subsequent events. That way there's a new program without a bunch of time invested in the rules and details. If it's not well received then they didn't have a lot in the attempt.

I don't know. I just want to drive my cars and have fun.
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Old 02-09-2018, 06:00 AM   #45
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In an email from Heyward:
"A quick note on the Memorial Day event- we have been in touch with the track and it looks like the pricing is going to work for us. Thus far we have interest or commitment from NCR, CCR, SCR, ATL, TVR and CFR- with conversations continuing with others. If you or your region would like more information, I am pasting the initial communication about the event below, as always I am happy to answer questions."
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Old 02-09-2018, 07:08 AM   #46
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Yep, I got that also. We'll (ALSCCA) be discussing it at our Feb 13 meeting to see if we'll "partner".

CFR sounded interesting in holding their own version rather than pile on the CMP event, so there may be one coming to a track near (nearer) you Craig.
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:15 AM   #47
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IMO, any event they can run prior to the National event in September will help them get a better idea of what to expect and the logistics of how the event will have to work. I hope at least one of these events will be held, or maybe another is being held elsewhere in another region(s), to work out any bugs. Doubt I'll make either a Carolina or Florida event, but I'll be interested to hear the feedback and results.
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Old 02-18-2018, 03:23 PM   #48
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More info from Heyward Wagner...

http://jackbaruth.com/?p=8803

Some interesting tidbits. First, formula cars are not being classed. Second, looks to be a level 3 Time Trial on Saturday and TrackCross on Sunday. Third, all parts for “entry level” classes will have to be available from Tire Rack. You don’t have to buy from Tire Rack, but they have to be available from Tire Rack. SCCA is going to put out a full listing of all parts available and if you would like a part included, you can make that request.
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Old 02-20-2018, 03:53 PM   #49
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More updates coming tonight from Grassroots Motorsports and Heyward.

https://www.facebook.com/grassrootsmotorsports/
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Old 02-20-2018, 11:28 PM   #50
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The rules have been out for, what, less than an hour? And I have already written and submitted an essay about an issue I found in the rules to the feedback site. Besides the rampant copy/paste errors...

For those curious what I wrote:

"In the TB/Level 2 prep tire limits, 2wd cars are limited to 305mm width tires. Common cars in this class would be Mustangs and Camaros prepped for CAMC or STP Autocross classes. In these classes a very commonly used tire is the 315/30-R18 BFGoodrich Rival S. Usage of this tire would bump these muscle cars into the TA, a class designed for cars best classified as supercars.

Recent national level results have shown almost no competitive difference between a 305/30-R19 RE-71R and the 315/30-R18 BFG. There is also no effective price difference between the two tires either.

So in the interest of garnering as much interest as possible for this new program and avoiding ostracizing a whole group of potential drivers (including myself), I would recommend allowing 315mm width tires for 2wd vehicles in the TB class."
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